can we touch on classes?

[jonmandude]

We are now part way into the 2012 season and already most show reviews have comments on classes, and cars parked in wrong classes.

I am of the view that every car and every style should be allowed, whether you like it or not. I cannot stand the shows with year cut-offs. To me what they are saying is that they want the hobby to die with the old guys, or they want to keep it for only the wealthiest of individuals that can afford the $100K+ cars. From rat rods to classic street rods, from street machines to modern muscle, from low riders to donks, from Corvettes to tuners. It is all part of this great hobby, it is all hot rodding. Show organizers should consider this. Broaden your sight and include all.

For cars parked in the wrong classes. There are two problems. Either they are trying to cheat to win or they were given wrong info.

If a car is parked in the wrong class, the judges should be knowledgeable enough to see it (or they shouldn’t be judging). If they see a car parked in the wrong class, they should ask the owner why they are in that class. Maybe there is a reason, like “the person at registration or at the entrance told me I belong in this class”. If that is the case, they should be judged in the proper class. If that is not the reason then they should not be judged..period. Or there should be a HUGE deduction for wrong class.

This past weekend at Blanchardville (and also at Beaver Dam), I asked the person at the entrance what class I should be in. They asked me questions about some of the work I had done and told me which class I would fit best in. I have no issues with that. If it turns out to be the wrong class, I have no problems with any decision made. I don’t ever want to receive a trophy that should have gone to someone more deserving. I do not know how anyone could take pride in that.

Other ideas??

Topic

[jonmandude]

And classes by horsepower? who came up with this gem? And where did this 325 number come from?

Very few cars after 1972 had even 300hp. In fact after 1974, I would venture to say that ZERO cars had 300hp or better. At least not until the late 80’s. Yet many of cars considered “muscle cars” are in that group.
Examples:
Any 383 powered Mopar. The 383 was rated at 300hp.
Most small block powered cars from any era. I would say that a 340 Dart or 327 Camaro or 302 Mustang can be thought of as “muscle cars”. All under 325hp.
In 1977 the Pontiac Trans Am was one of the top hp cars at 195hp. Yet, it is often considered a “muscle car”
The Buick Grand National is considered by many to be the only “muscle car” of the 80’s…at 245hp.

Also how is that number decided? Is it bhp or whp? Do we ask for proof or is it accepted as truth because the car owner says so?
We have all been to “dyno days” and witnessed someone claiming to have big horsepower numbers only to put out less than 200 on the dynomometer. It happens a lot. It is nothing more than “bench racing”, claiming performance with no actual proof.

Can we save the horsepower claims for the track? These are car shows, nothing more. There is a place for claiming horsepower, it is called the track.

[moparkid25]

Muscle car classes should be for vehicles with 350hp or more stock, as it thats how it rolled off the assembly line. Yesterday at Blanchardville, someone had a 351 Mustang parked in the muscle car class… I believe it should’ve been in the Mustang class. Mustangs, Camaros/Firebirds, and Challengers were not muscle cars (though the arguement then begins with a big block powered car) but more of a pony car. Would I consider a big block Cuda/Challenger a muscle car? Yes. Would I consider a 2nd gen Mustang with a Cleveland or a Windsor a muscle car? No, but if it had a 429? Yes. Why? high horsepower factory engines in lightweight (for the era) chassis.

Jon’s right, a Mopar 383 is a pooch, and they were factory rated at 330hp. But, like any other engine, put a lil of this with a lil of that and you can have something – its called a modified vehicle that should not be in a stock class :whistle:

[Anonymous]

jonmandude wrote:

For cars parked in the wrong classes. There are two problems. Either they are trying to cheat to win or they were given wrong info.

If a car is parked in the wrong class, the judges should be knowledgeable enough to see it (or they shouldn’t be judging). If they see a car parked in the wrong class, they should ask the owner why they are in that class. Maybe there is a reason, like “the person at registration or at the entrance told me I belong in this class”. If that is the case, they should be judged in the proper class. If that is not the reason then they should not be judged..period. Or there should be a HUGE deduction for wrong class.

I also have a very illustrative example from yesterday’s Blanchardville show. I was competing in the 1970 to 1972 factory stock class. (Class 10) Parked immediately next to me was a 1972 Monte Carlo, anything but factory stock. I would have put this car in a mild or full custom class, based on what I saw. It was an Elvis tribute car complete with pinstriping all around the car, a fender to fender Elvis mural on the back of the car and retro looking interior with blue piping, and lots and lots of chrome on the engine. To add insult to injury this couple brought their own music. If I hear “hunka hunka burning love” one more time, I will throw up. The judging team spent a great deal of time with this car, and seemed to be very impressed. My factory, bone stock Skylark, got about 90 seconds of their attention, and off they went. This team of judges should have immediately noticed that it was in the wrong class. I could have spoke up and said something, but I chose to remain silent.

[circletrack]

Marshall, oh my gosh….. We looked at that car a couple times and couldn’t figure out why it was in the factory stock class, and why on earth anyone would go to the lengths they did to modify that car?! All the murals and pictures, it was a bit over the top compared to the others in the class, I completely understand what you mean.

I think that’s why some were upset at our show with the moves we made, the judges recognized the wrong class and approached the owners, which I think everyone should do. There are honestly people that have never shown their car and/or been to a car show and have no clue what class they should be in, let alone the difference between stock & modified. Last year we had people that won an award that never bothered to come to the stage until AFTER the show was over, they had no idea you have to collect your award or it’s given to the next person in line (at most events). It’s important to inform these people that you are in the wrong class, I do think most appreciate it.

[jonmandude]

I agree that judges should be able to recognize what “stock” is. To simplify it, it is “exactly the way that it was assembled at the factory and sold in the dealer showroom”. Any variation is “modified”.

Now, I agree that exceptions can be made for rims and factory options. I have seen some shows that allow up to 5 “minor modifications”. That is acceptable I think.

[jonmandude]

Zac, I would have to disagree with you somewhat. I view a “muscle car” is a V8, non-2bbl powered car from an era.

[Amigo2k]

So where do the cars with 3 or more mods go into at the Blanchardville show?
here are the classes:

http://www.blanchardville.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3&Itemid=12

There are no modified class by years and that is why I think we saw a large number of modified cars in the stock classes, because there is no real good fit for them. I know my 1st year at the show with my Beetle they stuck me in the stock 1950’s class (should I have been in that class? nope).

And as for the muscle car classes, I think if you listed that it has to have a big block with minimal modes in the class description then I think it would be clear.

Also, we all signed something right? Why not include a little thing that states the show reserves the right to move you to a different class if they feel you are in the wrong class.

I would like to see more shows like the Road Apples, moving folks to the correct classes. I’m sure it will piss some folks off and they won’t be back.

[Xman]

Call me when you have no class…

[Amigo2k]

[Xman]

ROFLMAO..thanks Ryan…must be Marshall’s friend..

[circletrack]

That would be the Monte Carlo, interesting, but certainly not factory stock

[moparkid25]

jonmandude wrote:

Zac, I would have to disagree with you somewhat. I view a “muscle car” is a V8, non-2bbl powered car from an era.

That then brings up the next question, do you consider classifying a car as a muscle by the trim package? Obviously the R/T package Dodge’s in a B-Body started out with a 375hp 440, and went North with horsepower from there. Chevy had the SS model, and A & F bodies had a 350hp 396 c.i. engine. You also had the 427/454 options too. Ford had 390s, 427,8, & 9s, and 460.

Each show could determine what is classified as a muscle car, whether its engine hp, or trim package which will generally include a high horsepower engine. I would consider a big block car a muscle car, but not the same body style with an economical engine. Example – A 1970 Chevelle SS454 LS6 would be in a muscle car class (provided its stock appearing), but if the next guy rolled in driving a 1970 Chevy Malibu with a 350 2bbl, he would go in a stock class. The difference again relates to a trim package the car is built with.

And yes, pony cars are pony cars. Small block pony cars are not muscle cars

[jonmandude]

Let me ask you this then Zac. If we are using hp rating as a factor, are you going to make people bring in dyno sheets to prove it?

And the R/T package on the mighty Mopars we both love included the 340. The only engines left out of the R/T option list were 6 cylinders and 2bbl

[jonmandude]

This is exactly the can of worms I think can be avoided. Leave horsepower, engine sizes, and trim packages out of classifications. Simply do year classes in stock and modified. Do we really need “muscle car” classes? We have Mustang, Camaro and Corvette classes already at most shows. What does that leave? Simple

1950-1959 Stock & Modified
1960-1966 Stock & Modified
1967-1969 Stock & Modified
1970-1974 Stock & Modified
1975-1990 Stock & Modified
1990-2005 Stock & Modified
2005-Present Stock & Modified
Classify Stock as less than 3 “minor” modifications.
“Minor modifications” can include rims & tires, paint, stereo, air cleaner, exhaust.
Engine swaps, power adders, body changes are in modified classes automatically

I think that breaks up classes fairly evenly for almost every show I have been to.

I am of the belief that “muscle car” classes were created by someone in a non “muscle car” because the weren’t getting a trophy against a big block car and they didn’t want to put the effort into making their car stand out. This entitlement that everyone feels they deserve a trophy is out of hand.

[jonmandude]

This got me thinking.

Why do we have so many classes any how?
Because many people choose which shows to go to by their best chance to get a trophy. So in order to draw more spectators, we have added classes to give out more trophies. But in the process haven’t we cheapened the whole idea? We have all seen cars that received trophies just because they were in a class of 3 and they were the 3rd best car.

Then the shows try to do year restrictions to cut back. But that hurts the hobby.

So we are back to adding classes so more people receive trophies and leave happy, so they’ll come back next year. But then we bitch and moan because the trophy presentation takes too long and the day is too long because it takes too long to judge 40 classes of cars.

How about instead of dash plaques we just give each person a “best of class” trophy upon entering and call it a day? Then everyone can feel good about themselves. Is that where we are headed?

We can’t let the Mustangs compete with the muscle cars. We can’t let the corvettes compete with the Camaros. We can’t let the small blocks compete with the big blocks…in the same damn cars. It is ridiculous.

[Author]

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