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We are now part way into the 2012 season and already most show reviews have comments on classes, and cars parked in wrong classes.
I am of the view that every car and every style should be allowed, whether you like it or not. I cannot stand the shows with year cut-offs. To me what they are saying is that they want the hobby to die with the old guys, or they want to keep it for only the wealthiest of individuals that can afford the $100K+ cars. From rat rods to classic street rods, from street machines to modern muscle, from low riders to donks, from Corvettes to tuners. It is all part of this great hobby, it is all hot rodding. Show organizers should consider this. Broaden your sight and include all.
For cars parked in the wrong classes. There are two problems. Either they are trying to cheat to win or they were given wrong info.
If a car is parked in the wrong class, the judges should be knowledgeable enough to see it (or they shouldn’t be judging). If they see a car parked in the wrong class, they should ask the owner why they are in that class. Maybe there is a reason, like “the person at registration or at the entrance told me I belong in this class”. If that is the case, they should be judged in the proper class. If that is not the reason then they should not be judged..period. Or there should be a HUGE deduction for wrong class.
This past weekend at Blanchardville (and also at Beaver Dam), I asked the person at the entrance what class I should be in. They asked me questions about some of the work I had done and told me which class I would fit best in. I have no issues with that. If it turns out to be the wrong class, I have no problems with any decision made. I don’t ever want to receive a trophy that should have gone to someone more deserving. I do not know how anyone could take pride in that.
Other ideas??
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This weekend I will be at the Belvedere Mopar Happening. I will be in a class for Modern Challengers. That class will include all Challengers from 2008 to 2012. There is no break in engine sizes, all four are included. There is no break for trim packages, or special editions. There is no break for stock or modified. The class will have probably 35-40 cars, maybe more.
Last fall at a similar Mopar show, I took second in that class of 23 cars. I didn’t bitch that I shouldn’t have competed with more performance or more heavily modified cars. I didn’t complain about too many cars in the class. I respected the winner and decided that my car could be better, so I put effort into improving my car.
To me a trophy only means something if it is truly an appreciation of effort that you put into your car, and how it compares directly to your peers. I don’t want to cheapen that by whittling down the class so I can win. I want to challenge myself to earn it.
Maybe I place this weekend, maybe not. But I do not go home empty handed. I will have a great time seeing some beautiful cars that excite me and be around some great people who share that passion.
I think that this was the case with my neighbors at Blanchardville. It was an older couple and it didn’t appear that they had been to very many car shows. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, maybe they just didn’t realize that they were competing in the wrong class.
I’m sure the judges noticed the paintings and the murals and the large amount of pinstriping.
We were at a car show this weekend and my wife took my 92 Dodge Stealth Twin Turbo. It’s bone stock except for the CAI. I’ve had this car since it was born and that’s the only mod on it. We entered the 92-98 stock class. The guy who won it had a Monte Carlo with a, and I have to admidt a bitch’n candy apple flame job. A built 350, and a bunch of other mods. This car should have been in hot rods or something else. My other thought is how do you police stuff like this without piss’n somebody off.
STORMEASTON wrote:We were at a car show this weekend and my wife took my 92 Dodge Stealth Twin Turbo. It’s bone stock except for the CAI. I’ve had this car since it was born and that’s the only mod on it. We entered the 92-98 stock class. The guy who won it had a Monte Carlo with a, and I have to admidt a bitch’n candy apple flame job. A built 350, and a bunch of other mods. This car should have been in hot rods or something else. My other thought is how do you police stuff like this without piss’n somebody off.My point, exactly. How do you bring this to the judge’s or organizer’s attention, at that time, without making a new enemy?
jonmandude wrote:Why do we have so many classes any how?Because many people choose which shows to go to by their best chance to get a trophy. So in order to draw more spectators, we have added classes to give out more trophies. But in the process haven’t we cheapened the whole idea? We have all seen cars that received trophies just because they were in a class of 3 and they were the 3rd best car.
Then the shows try to do year restrictions to cut back. But that hurts the hobby.
So we are back to adding classes so more people receive trophies and leave happy, so they’ll come back next year. But then we bitch and moan because the trophy presentation takes too long and the day is too long because it takes too long to judge 40 classes of cars.
How about instead of dash plaques we just give each person a “best of class” trophy upon entering and call it a day? Then everyone can feel good about themselves. Is that where we are headed?
We can’t let the Mustangs compete with the muscle cars. We can’t let the corvettes compete with the Camaros. We can’t let the small blocks compete with the big blocks…in the same damn cars. It is ridiculous.
A couple of comments…
First, of all your CAR is your trophy. Whether you receive a plastic trophy at at a local car show “judged” by amateur volunteers or not is meaningless. If you want to truly “compete,” go to a show specifically for your marque and get judged by people who really know something about your specific car.
Many local car shows are fundraising events for the show’s sponsors or communities, etc. The idea of giving away a lot of plastic trophies show people attend and support the cause that the event sponsor is trying to support. These are not really “competitions.” It is an opinion of generally unqualified people who are volunteers.
The best part of the car hobby is a shared passion for cars and the opportunity to meet people that you would never probably have a chance to meet if it wasn’t for this common interest. Don’t waste your time worrying about classes and trophies etc. I’ve had much more enjoyment from talking with people about my car and hearing stories about the one that they had some experience with that was similar to mine than I will ever get from a plastic trophy… Just my $.02.
Quote:Let me ask you this then Zac. If we are using hp rating as a factor, are you going to make people bring in dyno sheets to prove it?Dyno sheets? No, you would go off factory HP ratings. But then you need to have judges and show staff that are well versed in the 64-72 era Muscle Cars.
Quote:And the R/T package on the mighty Mopars we both love included the 340. The only engines left out of the R/T option list were 6 cylinders and 2bbl.1. I never drove a 340 that wasn’t fast, unless it was post ’72 and wasn’t modified. 2. B-Body R/Ts were 440s or 426s, where E-Body R/T Challengers had either 383s or 440s, or Hemi’s. Here’s an excerpt from Wiki (only because its quick to get to, and I don’t want to scan pages from my Chrysler bible :whistle: ) regarding R/T models:
The performance model was the R/T (Road/Track), with a 383 CID Magnum V8, rated at 335 bhp (249.8 kW); 300 bhp (223.7 kW) for 1971, due to a drop in compression. The standard transmission was a 3-speed manual. Optional R/T engines were the 375 bhp (279.6 kW) 440 cu in (7.2 L) Magnum, the 390 bhp (290.8 kW) 440 CID Six-Pack and the 425 bhp (316.9 kW) 426 cu in (7.0 L) Hemi. The R/T was available in either the hardtop or convertible. For 1970 only, base hardtop and R/T hardtop models could be ordered with the more luxurious SE specification, which included leather seats, a vinyl roof, a smaller ‘formal’ rear window, and an overhead interior console that contained three warning lights (door ajar, low fuel, and seatbelts).[10] The Challenger R/T came with a Rallye instrument cluster that included a 150 mph (240 km/h) speedometer, an 8,000 rpm tachometer,[11] 1972–1974 tachometer went to 7,000 rpm and an oil pressure gauge. In 1973, the R/T badging was dropped and these models were called “Rallye”, although they were never badged as such. The shaker hood scoop was not available after 1971.
Obviously the 340 6-pak engines in the Challenger T/As and AAR Cuda’s were the holy grail of LA series engines, but neither was an R/T model
jonmandude wrote:This is exactly the can of worms I think can be avoided. Leave horsepower, engine sizes, and trim packages out of classifications. Simply do year classes in stock and modified. Do we really need “muscle car” classes? We have Mustang, Camaro and Corvette classes already at most shows. What does that leave? Simple1950-1959 Stock & Modified
1960-1966 Stock & Modified
1967-1969 Stock & Modified
1970-1974 Stock & Modified
1975-1990 Stock & Modified
1990-2005 Stock & Modified
2005-Present Stock & Modified
Classify Stock as less than 3 “minor” modifications.
“Minor modifications” can include rims & tires, paint, stereo, air cleaner, exhaust.
Engine swaps, power adders, body changes are in modified classes automaticallyI think that breaks up classes fairly evenly for almost every show I have been to.
I am of the belief that “muscle car” classes were created by someone in a non “muscle car” because the weren’t getting a trophy against a big block car and they didn’t want to put the effort into making their car stand out. This entitlement that everyone feels they deserve a trophy is out of hand.
For a show that has 150-200 cars, this classification would be ok. However, when you start to get 400-500 cars+ at a show more classes will be needed. Thats when you have the Patina, street rods, two seat, and factory race car classes also to break up classes. Yes, the more classes mean the longer the awards presentation. I think large shows that have cars trailered in should keep the trailered cars in a seperate class also. I personally think if its not driven to and from the show, it shouldn’t be judged. Cars were built to be driven.
As far as awards go, that’s a whole other topic. Yes, its nice when you win one, as it shows the judging team or other participants who turned in ballots felt your car was deserving. There is a lot of competition at shows, and at times it is nice to see some people still have a competitive spirit. Others are more laid back and are easy going. My trophies are the vehicles I own/have owned. Its an award that shows years of hard work and self discipline to get something you can enjoy. I’ve had cars nicer than the one I’m currently driving, but I also have more fun with the car I have now than some others I’ve had. There’s also the haters out there…. The ones who years ago got pissy when some scrawny Scandanavian kid started pulling into shows with a Charger and made snide comments about how his Daddy must’ve bought him that car. Well, that kid busted his ass to have that car, and the only name on the title was mine. Stuff like that makes me want to be competitive at shows, and savor that $12 piece of plastic. Nowdays, I’m more interested in just enjoying the show, seeing fellow enthusiasts and what new changes they’ve made with there cars, and getting out and driving mine.
At the end of the day, 95% of the cars that beat me standing still couldn’t beat me in the 1/4 mile
Still haven’t heard an argument that convinces me that using hp is a good idea. There are better methods. Your idea of using factory hp numbers is good, but it does require knowledgeable judges and registration people. Plus hp ratings changed almost every year. Let’s just leave hp out of it. If the show is bigger and needs to broken down more, there are better ways. Mopar, Mustang, Corvette, Camaro/Firebird classes. If you must, maybe a simple big block and small block classes. Convertable and coupe classes. Horsepower has it’s place, but it doesn’t do anything for how well a car shows.
All these classes hmmmmm, do we really need more classes? Just so someone can get a trophy because they feel cheated out. Many car shows post their classes a year in advance. If you you don’t see anything that suits you or your vehicle don’t go to that show. Pretty soon there will be 150 classes so everyone at the show can get a trophy. Maybe we should just accept how the promoters run their show and if you don’t like it, stay home… It amazes me how many people complain about the Dells show and their judging. (including me) However we all still attend it every year, just to sit on the hot blacktop with no shade.
Xman wrote:All these classes hmmmmm, do we really need more classes? Just so someone can get a trophy because they feel cheated out. Many car shows post their classes a year in advance. If you you don’t see anything that suits you or your vehicle don’t go to that show. Pretty soon there will be 150 classes so everyone at the show can get a trophy. Maybe we should just accept how the promoters run their show and if you don’t like it, stay home… It amazes me how many people complain about the Dells show and their judging. (including me) However we all still attend it every year, just to sit on the hot blacktop with no shade.:laugh: I’m not playing that game anymore!
I would have to say a few things in short amount of time in regards to hp in classes and people jumping classes and getting in classes to just win an award. Shame on you if you feel the need to lie or do that to win an award. You have to sleep with yourself at night and know that you did that to win an award. I think there is nothing wrong with having hp as part of a breakdown in a class no matter the size of show. You need to define what a muscle car is. A muscle car is not just a name, it is “MUSCLE” aka HP. I use Hp to break down a muscle car class at my car show for the reason of not having a car with 200 hp consider themselves as a muscle car. If they feel the need to lie about it that is just stupid. I have judges that look for these things granted not everyone knows every make and model of cars hp so we rely on the participant to be honest. If you notice at a show that a car is not in the correct class don’t complain about it after the fact go to a judge and speak up. As for calling it “bench racing” by defining a class that is silly too. It is simply a way to break a car class down. I try to please everyone out there that is why I have the breakdown in classes that I use. EVERYONE who puts on a show will tell you no matter what you do someone will not be happy. That is why every year I ask and put out a comment cards to all participants on how to improve the car show. some times they just say they dont like something and give no ideas on how to improve. Most others rant and rave about how great a show it was. I have 99% positive feedback for my show and for that matter almost all shows. I can say I I will say this is the first time I have ever had a complaint about a class for my show. I will be adjusting the classes a little bit next year but the hp with the muscle car class will stay. I do not think it is “bench racing”. I am only trying to explain my 2 cents on this subject. I am open to any and all assistance/ideas in making my and all shows better.
Simplifing the classes and making less would weed out the also-rans. You have to compete against “similar” year & model cars. If only 3 show up or 30 show up your still being judged which is a wildcard in itself. Remember beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I know human nature plays into this as we all have our likes and dislikes. Have 1 class that mural,pinstriped,weird cars are put in to compete against themselves. Call it strangest of the show or weird but true and let it be. We used to race motocross. We quite going years ago cuz there was an “F”ing class for everything and everyone. Yup, so your not so good rider would go home with plastic. They kept coming back and back and back. The days got longer and longer till sitting around from early morning till early evening waiting to race our motos got tiring and boring. Trust me, that will happen at car shows when you have all these classes and putting in 9-11 hours waiting for that great plastic trophy gets old.
IMHO the simplest ay to avoid all this “class envy” is to simply stop judging…
I find that shows are much more enjoyable when it’s all about friends and cars… not about plastic trophies. No crying about another guy who spent less getting a trophy… no more complaining about mis-classified cars. No picking apart someones home restoration…
Now if we could just insert some “fun” back into the shows instead of sitting in a lawn chair… I can do that at home and save $$$ on gas.
End of curmudgeon rant…
krooser wrote:IMHO the simplest ay to avoid all this “class envy” is to simply stop judging…I find that shows are much more enjoyable when it’s all about friends and cars… not about plastic trophies. No crying about another guy who spent less getting a trophy… no more complaining about mis-classified cars. No picking apart someones home restoration…
Now if we could just insert some “fun” back into the shows instead of sitting in a lawn chair… I can do that at home and save $$$ on gas.
End of curmudgeon rant…
Yep. This is why I enjoy cruise nights more than shows. That and they take up less of my day
krooser wrote:IMHO the simplest ay to avoid all this “class envy” is to simply stop judging…I find that shows are much more enjoyable when it’s all about friends and cars… not about plastic trophies. No crying about another guy who spent less getting a trophy… no more complaining about mis-classified cars. No picking apart someones home restoration…
Now if we could just insert some “fun” back into the shows instead of sitting in a lawn chair… I can do that at home and save $$$ on gas.
End of curmudgeon rant…
Well said! The pleasure I get at car shows is seeing the reacations, and hearing peoples stories that my car envokes.Worth more that any trophy.I also agree with jonmamdude,I perfer cruise nights.I have only been to 4 car shows this summer.Five ,200, 422, and 1444 miles from home.
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