[jonmandude]

I think all involved should be in jail, the university should be heavily fined and the money to a fund for abused children, but no sanctions on the program. The kids there now had nothing to do with it, yet they are the ones paying for it. Plus the program being sanctioned effects others too. Remember the BCS uses a strength of schedule to determine bowl placement. Now every team that plays PSU for the next 4-8 years is saddled with a lower ranking because PSU will not be a strong team. How is that fair?

Two wrongs do not make it right. Punish the criminals not the world. To me the punishment is like this

A group of people embezzle from a company, they get caught, get fired and go to prison, now all of the employees have to pay the money back, including those hired after the crime.

Now please don’t get me wrong, I am not equating what happened with theft. What Sandusky did was infinitely more disgusting and I hope he lives a long painful life being anally raped hourly, but the punishment handed out to PSU is not hurting the criminals involved.

[jonmandude]

Of the three? a Volt

But how about this?
http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/en-us

[jonmandude]

GTO Man wrote:

Could you distinguish between the two with the use of a magnet?

Exactly what I was thinking.

Or weight?

[jonmandude]

Still haven’t heard an argument that convinces me that using hp is a good idea. There are better methods. Your idea of using factory hp numbers is good, but it does require knowledgeable judges and registration people. Plus hp ratings changed almost every year. Let’s just leave hp out of it. If the show is bigger and needs to broken down more, there are better ways. Mopar, Mustang, Corvette, Camaro/Firebird classes. If you must, maybe a simple big block and small block classes. Convertable and coupe classes. Horsepower has it’s place, but it doesn’t do anything for how well a car shows.

[jonmandude]

This weekend I will be at the Belvedere Mopar Happening. I will be in a class for Modern Challengers. That class will include all Challengers from 2008 to 2012. There is no break in engine sizes, all four are included. There is no break for trim packages, or special editions. There is no break for stock or modified. The class will have probably 35-40 cars, maybe more.

Last fall at a similar Mopar show, I took second in that class of 23 cars. I didn’t bitch that I shouldn’t have competed with more performance or more heavily modified cars. I didn’t complain about too many cars in the class. I respected the winner and decided that my car could be better, so I put effort into improving my car.

To me a trophy only means something if it is truly an appreciation of effort that you put into your car, and how it compares directly to your peers. I don’t want to cheapen that by whittling down the class so I can win. I want to challenge myself to earn it.

Maybe I place this weekend, maybe not. But I do not go home empty handed. I will have a great time seeing some beautiful cars that excite me and be around some great people who share that passion.

[jonmandude]

This got me thinking.

Why do we have so many classes any how?
Because many people choose which shows to go to by their best chance to get a trophy. So in order to draw more spectators, we have added classes to give out more trophies. But in the process haven’t we cheapened the whole idea? We have all seen cars that received trophies just because they were in a class of 3 and they were the 3rd best car.

Then the shows try to do year restrictions to cut back. But that hurts the hobby.

So we are back to adding classes so more people receive trophies and leave happy, so they’ll come back next year. But then we bitch and moan because the trophy presentation takes too long and the day is too long because it takes too long to judge 40 classes of cars.

How about instead of dash plaques we just give each person a “best of class” trophy upon entering and call it a day? Then everyone can feel good about themselves. Is that where we are headed?

We can’t let the Mustangs compete with the muscle cars. We can’t let the corvettes compete with the Camaros. We can’t let the small blocks compete with the big blocks…in the same damn cars. It is ridiculous.

[jonmandude]

This is exactly the can of worms I think can be avoided. Leave horsepower, engine sizes, and trim packages out of classifications. Simply do year classes in stock and modified. Do we really need “muscle car” classes? We have Mustang, Camaro and Corvette classes already at most shows. What does that leave? Simple

1950-1959 Stock & Modified
1960-1966 Stock & Modified
1967-1969 Stock & Modified
1970-1974 Stock & Modified
1975-1990 Stock & Modified
1990-2005 Stock & Modified
2005-Present Stock & Modified
Classify Stock as less than 3 “minor” modifications.
“Minor modifications” can include rims & tires, paint, stereo, air cleaner, exhaust.
Engine swaps, power adders, body changes are in modified classes automatically

I think that breaks up classes fairly evenly for almost every show I have been to.

I am of the belief that “muscle car” classes were created by someone in a non “muscle car” because the weren’t getting a trophy against a big block car and they didn’t want to put the effort into making their car stand out. This entitlement that everyone feels they deserve a trophy is out of hand.

[jonmandude]

Let me ask you this then Zac. If we are using hp rating as a factor, are you going to make people bring in dyno sheets to prove it?

And the R/T package on the mighty Mopars we both love included the 340. The only engines left out of the R/T option list were 6 cylinders and 2bbl

[jonmandude]

Zac, I would have to disagree with you somewhat. I view a “muscle car” is a V8, non-2bbl powered car from an era.

[jonmandude]

I agree that judges should be able to recognize what “stock” is. To simplify it, it is “exactly the way that it was assembled at the factory and sold in the dealer showroom”. Any variation is “modified”.

Now, I agree that exceptions can be made for rims and factory options. I have seen some shows that allow up to 5 “minor modifications”. That is acceptable I think.

[jonmandude]

And classes by horsepower? who came up with this gem? And where did this 325 number come from?

Very few cars after 1972 had even 300hp. In fact after 1974, I would venture to say that ZERO cars had 300hp or better. At least not until the late 80’s. Yet many of cars considered “muscle cars” are in that group.
Examples:
Any 383 powered Mopar. The 383 was rated at 300hp.
Most small block powered cars from any era. I would say that a 340 Dart or 327 Camaro or 302 Mustang can be thought of as “muscle cars”. All under 325hp.
In 1977 the Pontiac Trans Am was one of the top hp cars at 195hp. Yet, it is often considered a “muscle car”
The Buick Grand National is considered by many to be the only “muscle car” of the 80’s…at 245hp.

Also how is that number decided? Is it bhp or whp? Do we ask for proof or is it accepted as truth because the car owner says so?
We have all been to “dyno days” and witnessed someone claiming to have big horsepower numbers only to put out less than 200 on the dynomometer. It happens a lot. It is nothing more than “bench racing”, claiming performance with no actual proof.

Can we save the horsepower claims for the track? These are car shows, nothing more. There is a place for claiming horsepower, it is called the track.

[jonmandude]

congrats on the trophy

[jonmandude]

What? No Prius on the list? Or is that just the most annoying car ever built? Or is that just the drivers of Prius’?

Sorry, felt like a chuckle

[jonmandude]

circletrack wrote:

I know we can’t please everyone, believe me, if we could’ve ordered a nice, sunny 70 degree day and filled Angell Park with cars 30-40 years old, we would’ve done it, but that’s not realistic or possible. For those that complained about too many new cars, have you not been to shows lately and realize not everyone desires to have a car that’s 40+ years old? Are you forgetting that keeping this hobby alive requires welcoming anyone that feels they have a car that’s desirable and others want to enjoy? There will come a time when the people that own these cars are no longer around, then what? I guarantee the youth of today have no idea what a ’69 Chevelle, ’70 GTO, or anything like that is, and most have no desire to learn about them either, it’s much easier to have a new car with all the modern options and such. I enjoy seeing the Modern Muscle cars, the trend to show them will only grow stronger in future years.

Well put Rachael. Those who know me, know that I have had classics that I built, an import that I spent stupid money on and now have a modern muscle. I don’t like to hear elitist attitude and feel this hobby should be open to all. It should never be about the cars or the trophies, it is about the people and the passion we all share. I always try to remember when I was first building cars and could only afford a basic 10 year old car. The older guys all had their big block Chevelles and Hemi Mopars and tri-5 Chevies. They probably didn’t want our beaters around either, but the attitude I always received was acceptance. No one ever said “why let that new junk in?”. All was appreciated with the understanding that each person loved their car. I have tried to carry that thru life.

Rachael, I have met many of the Road Apples and from what I have seen you all love the hobby and have always shown respect for others. I am sure that you have created a first class show. I did not attend because I was at work, but I would have liked to. That being said understand that, as with anything else, you cannot please everyone all of the time. Besides the weather and these one or two persons, I have heard nothing but praise for the show. I look forward to attending next year.

[jonmandude]

Who’s up for meeting at the Bariques Cars & Coffee and the caravanning to Blanchardville?

[Author]

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